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 Karazhan and Raid Strategies

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Arvernien
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PostSubject: Karazhan and Raid Strategies   Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:00 pm

I thought I'd start a discussion on raid strategies. Feel free to post your ideas:

First thought:
We need consistant raid marks, but these are not always possible because there are more required marks in a raid.

I think as a general rule we need the following:

1: first target
2: second target
3: third target
4: polymorph
5: polymorph
6: sap
7: banish
8: shackle
9: trap

The question I propose to the group is this: where can we double up? Can polymorph and shackle share marks? We know that undead can't be polymorphed and you can't shackle the living.

Second thought:
Everyone get Omen and learn how to use it.

Third thought:
Let the tank establish threat on the mobs before DPS starts. This usually means waiting for 3 sunders to apply. If we all have omen we can establish a threat value and use that as a starting point. Or we could assign a main assist and when the main assist starts DPS then everyone starts DSP.

I reviewed the combat log and I know that there are a few things I need to do. I was using Deadly Boss Mods on Attumen but at the time I didn't know what it was telling me. I now know that spell reflection can bounce his curses. I will also have a new shield by May 3.

Did you see anything? What do you think we should do?
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Arvernien
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PostSubject: Re: Karazhan and Raid Strategies   Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:38 pm

One more thing on the raid marks.

There are easily 10 or so marks to make, however, there are only 8 different symbols. With our group we could easily have 3 shackles (3 priests), 2 polymorphs, a sap, a banish, a trap, an off tank target, 3 mobs in a kill order and probably some miscellaneous other marks. Occasionally, I like to mark patrols so that we can see them coming when they are behind walls and what not.

I will make a macro that defines the marks and during the raid I'll post it in raid chat. I'd like to set it up the same everytime and use it consistantly in every guild grouping.

Can you think of any macros that aid the group? I like Tuber's "<name> is soulstoned for 30 minutes." I have my pulling macro. Are there any others?
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Detrimental
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PostSubject: macro suggestions?   Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:10 pm

Would it be helpful for casters to announce AoE spells as they are about to be cast?
Althought the visual effects make it obvious that Rain of Fire (e.g.) is being cast, giving the
tank(s) a half-second's advanced notice and letting the tank(s) know who is potentially about to pull mass aggro might be beneficial in a raid situation.

I'll be joining you guys soon!

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Loraeille
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PostSubject: Re: Karazhan and Raid Strategies   Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:18 am

So far as marks go, these are what I've found to be generally accepted:

Kill targets:
1. Skull
2. X

Polymorph:
1. Moon

Shackle:
1. Star

Banish:
1. Diamond

Trap:
1. Square

Sap:
1. Circle

These are all primaries, but with commonly running no larger than 5-mans, secondary marks for the CC's aren't needed like they are in 10-man and up. The secondaries are what we really need to decide on, but I think much of that will come when we have the team together to decide which actions we actually have available and which we don't. Also, I don't know of a primary use for the Triangle, so maybe a warning mark, for the patrols you mentioned?
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Tuber
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PostSubject: Re: Karazhan and Raid Strategies   Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:23 am

I would like to proposes a secondary strategy, commited to extending the attacks that turn to be lenghty battles with more than a couple mobs. I commented in the game "kill the healer kill, group". A lock or two can provide a soulstone to to healer only on an average of once thirty minutes or if there are two locks avial once every 15 min. Depending on soulstone supply. These of course only help after the castastrophy of the wipe has occured.

My thought is along this vein. A designated person(s) to upon warning from the healer, or seeing the healer under attack, this person will stop whatever melee attack they may be doing and assist the healer in the attempt to not die. Keeping the healer healing could extend that battle just long enough to kill a boss. In a five person group there is little duplicity of roles. But in a large platoon of ten, there are more than enough to designate one person to keep the healer alive. Calling in a tank upon attack seems to be the most common tactic I have read about. An okay option if the fight is not to long, tanks have not fallen or been depleted to the point where soon the secondary tank will assumed tanking duties. Think of how many times a boss has gotten to way low percentages of life left only to slip out the grasp because the priest is dead and the tank on call just ran out two hits to a kill. YOu may begin muttering here....

What is happnening in the front of the fight will always be the primary concern of a raid or large instance. What happened to that dude who just broke through to take a whack at the healer should be on our minds as well. The duty of primary healer aid should be put on one person, voice chat should be a condition. By all means, the healer should do whatever they can to keep aggro down, mana up and the tanks a killin'. But kill the healer seems to be programmed into this game. Kill the healer, kill the group.

My three cents... Would like to hear what you think, and how do you think this strategy can be integrated into a basic attack strategy.

Thanks


Tuber HM2/USN

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Arvernien
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PostSubject: Re: Karazhan and Raid Strategies   Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:30 am

I suppose if we have enough crowd control we don't need more than 2 mobs in the kill order. I currently use the same marks you have noted with one variation - star and shackle are usually reversed in my groups. I will change to your system.

For standard 5 man groups lets agree to use Loraeille's system described above and include the green triangle for marking patrols. This system should be used for all guild parties. I will create a macro that will publish this list in party chat and will make it available for anyone to copy.
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Arvernien
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PostSubject: Re: Karazhan and Raid Strategies   Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:35 am

Great idea, Tuber.

I think the off-tank has the best chance to save the healer. We need someone with a taunt ability. A root ability might also work, but the healers often can't move because that would interrupt their spell.
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Lassyran
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PostSubject: Re: Karazhan and Raid Strategies   Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:09 am

From any of my raiding friends the primary use for the triangle seems to be secondary crowd control. This means you would use it for a second sheep, shackle, trap, or sap. It is also used for mind control when a shadow priest is available or enslave demon when applicable.

It can also be used to mark the target of the off-tank if it's not within the kill order.
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Everit
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PostSubject: Re: Karazhan and Raid Strategies   Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:03 pm

out of some of the sucessful raids i have been on... there has always been a shadow priest with the casters to replenish mana... i think that it would be a great idea if i everit went in as dps instead of heals... i know that we are short on heals in the lvl 70 raid range... also with that whole mana replenish, pali tanks work really good in kara especially with a shadow priest there... i will go with either way.. just wanted to throw that out for everyone to mull over....


Everit
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Pepsit
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PostSubject: try this..   Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:37 am

Arvernien wrote:
I thought I'd start a discussion on raid strategies. Feel free to post your ideas:

First thought:
We need consistant raid marks, but these are not always possible because there are more required marks in a raid.

I think as a general rule we need the following:

1: first target
2: second target
3: third target
4: polymorph
5: polymorph
6: sap
7: banish
8: shackle
9: trap

The question I propose to the group is this: where can we double up? Can polymorph and shackle share marks? We know that undead can't be polymorphed and you can't shackle the living.

Second thought:
Everyone get Omen and learn how to use it.

Third thought:
Let the tank establish threat on the mobs before DPS starts. This usually means waiting for 3 sunders to apply. If we all have omen we can establish a threat value and use that as a starting point. Or we could assign a main assist and when the main assist starts DPS then everyone starts DSP.

For standard 5 man groups lets agree to use Loraeille's system described above and include the green triangle for marking patrols. This system should be used for all guild parties. I will create a macro that will publish this list in party chat and will make it available for anyone to copy.

Did you see anything? What do you think we should do?

I couldnt agree more to all the "quoted" I want to first comment on raid marking (10+ grouped) We have 8 markings that we can use unless I miscounted which is possible. I really feel we should double up on the polymorph and SAP, for one reason only they both need to be humanoids if I am not mistaken, So as long as the communication is there; we can figure if it would be beneficial to have following go on in the event there are more than one humanoid.
OK SAP this: blah making sure the rogue understands that he is saping the mob marked then have him target and move half way in. Then mark the sheep and leave it there and make sure the person using polymorph is sheeping that mob.
Now another suggestion if there is one humanoid although doubtful, we should leave it up to the rogue to sap due to energy recovers faster than mana. Unless there are mobs that can see through stealth.
So, by doing this and it is only a suggestion, we can utilize one mark for two types of CC that can only be used on the same creature type.

OMEN, YES!!! we need OMEN and everyone should get it if they want the raid to be successful, now it is there choice and I understand that, however Omen helps me out alot when tanking, IF a mob was to leave me and got to the next proceeding highest threat generating character in our raid as soon as he turns from me onto him/her I can Righteous defense the person and let that person be unharmed...so that is my opinion and i am sticking to it lol.

I also agree with lassy, Triangle gives that enemy patrol's location feeling, to me being a halo/army dude i like that. I like that idea as well.

I think I am in agreement with the above posts. I will continue to monitor this topic and if I come up with anything more I will post it.

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Last edited by Pepsit on Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:19 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : I dont have MS Word lol...)
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Vescas
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PostSubject: Re: Karazhan and Raid Strategies   Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:05 am

Just pointing out, No polymorph or sap in karazhan no humanoids, all undead lol!
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Arvernien
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PostSubject: Re: Karazhan and Raid Strategies   Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:12 pm

Well that makes this a bit easier. Thanks Vescas.

From my personal experience it would be nice if we could use a couple of marks for the off-tank. A good off-tank is better than CC, but maybe a bit harder on the healers.

My recent Karazhan run we had 3 healers - a priest, a druid and a paladin. It helped that the 5 DPSers were well geared for it.
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